Dripping in All Identities featuring Anna DeShawn

Anna DeShawn (00:00.353)
You

Dominic Lawson (00:01.452)
What's up good people all across the world. This is the Dripping Black Podcast with your guest host, Dominic Lawson. I'm a multi-award winning podcaster and I serve as Director of Podcasts for Owls Education Company. Just want to thank the man behind the glass, S Squared, again for this amazing opportunity. Now, before we get into today's conversation with today's amazing guest, who's basically family, by the way. But before I get into that, listen, you know you see it. You know you see it. Dripping in Black, get the merch.

Dibkdripshop.com, get your mugs, get your stickers. You you may even get a special appearance for S square. You pay the right money. I don't know, but here's the thing. Dibkdripshop.com. But let me get to the task at hand. Good people. She is a Chicago born social entrepreneur, storyteller and community organizer. She's a multi, multi award winning podcast host and producer who builds streaming platforms that center and celebrate BIPOC.

and QTPOC creators. In 2023, was inducted into the Chicago LGBTQ Hall of Fame for her unwavering commitment to the LGBTQ community. Listen, y'all, I know this is a Dripping in Black episode, but it's probably more of family reunion for me. Again, put your hands together for the one only Anna DeShawn. Family, what's good? I can't call it. I can't call it. Listen, I've been excited for this one.

Anna DeShawn (01:21.761)
Hey, family, what's going on, bro? Hey, I appreciate you. Yo, I always love talking to you, so we gonna have a good time today. It's gonna be good.

Dominic Lawson (01:32.706)
I ain't mad at it. ain't mad at it. Well, listen, you know, obviously I know who you are, you know, the podcasting goat, Anna Deshaun. But let people know who you are, what you're all about it, and the work you do.

Anna DeShawn (01:38.667)
Yeah.

Yeah

Anna DeShawn (01:47.241)
Yeah. So you said all the good things like that still kind of blow me away that you talking about my bio. That's all still sinking in. But essentially I've just always been passionate about telling the stories of those who are most underestimated amongst us. And I've never wanted to be put into a box, but boxes, you know, have been imposed upon me and at different phases in my life. You know, people wanted me to do different things and I fit within that.

Dominic Lawson (02:02.296)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (02:17.121)
you know, black issues in black spaces, queer issues in queer spaces, women issues in women's spaces, but Chile. We are all stronger together than we are apart. All of these identities are mine and I want to tell the stories that impact us and those who I care about so deeply, I want to tell those stories. And so no box has ever really fit.

And so today I am just doubling down on that. continue to double down on that, especially given the political climate that we're in. Storytelling could not be more important today than ever before. And we must tell our stories so people know that we were here, period, and all of who we were, you know?

I think one thing that has been lost throughout history are the stories of people's sexuality, which is so incredibly important to who they were and the stories they told and how they chose to tell those stories. And it informed so much about who they were. And I think that we do a great disservice when we leave out the important parts of people's lives. And in storytelling, we get to tell all of them, we get to share all of that and all the beauty and all the challenges so that we can see a reflection of ourselves. And I think it's just so important that in the future.

those who come after us, I'm always constantly thinking about legacy, is they need to know we were here, what we were doing while we were here, so that they know that they were not the first, yeah, but they're continuing something, right, building towards this idea of liberation and freedom for those who deserve it most amongst us. I think that's really at the heart of who I am, what's pushing me to show up every day when the work can be really hard.

Dominic Lawson (04:00.334)
Absolutely, absolutely. I definitely want to dive into that work. But it's something you said that remind me of something, you you said a long time ago, and this quote has always stuck with me. you talked about those boxes, putting people putting you in boxes and putting us in boxes and stuff like that. And the unfortunate part is when people put us in boxes, right? It's like the other parts of us get, you know, get downplayed. They get, you know, get dismissed or whatever. But one of the things you said all has stuck with me to this day.

Anna DeShawn (04:11.063)
Hmm.

Dominic Lawson (04:30.506)
All of my identities matter. All of my parts matter. Right. And so it's like, you know, and when I heard that it was empowering for me. So thank you for that. Because it can be tough, you know, being in this podcast in space and saying, you're black. you clearly do this type of content. You do that type of content. Like, no, no, no. I do them all. So that that that phrase, you know, that statement, all my identities matter was definitely empowering to me. So I appreciate you saying that.

Anna DeShawn (04:40.566)
Mm.

Anna DeShawn (04:59.703)
Absolutely. I'm glad it impacted you because it's true. I think we hear the words intersectionality. We hear the word intersectionality. And I think we still put intersectionality into a box. We think specifically about maybe race or gender. But Chile, me being from Chicago, being from the South Side of Chicago is every much so at an intersection for me and a very big part of my identity.

Dominic Lawson (05:04.417)
Right.

Dominic Lawson (05:11.767)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (05:29.835)
How I grew up is a big part of my identity. It's also part of the intersections that make all of us really, really beautiful and make all of our stories really particular to who we are and where we're from. And I think that we do the world a great disservice when we choose to diminish one or two or three parts of ourselves to make somebody else feel comfortable. I think James Baldwin said it best that, basically we ain't gonna try to dumb down this issue.

I believe we're all smart enough to handle more than one thing at one time, right? We all can handle a complicated issue or complicated identities. We just have to choose to do it. It's not hard.

Dominic Lawson (06:09.782)
Right. That choice piece is pivotal. talk about growing up in the South Side of Chicago. There's a little bit of Chicago in me I share with you personally. As a toddler, I lived in near Lake Shore Drive and stuff like that, and then eventually moved to the West Side and stuff like that. But kind of talk about growing up, being born in Chicago, growing up in Chicago, and how it's influenced the work that you do today.

Anna DeShawn (06:13.014)
Yeah.

Anna DeShawn (06:36.631)
And I still love you even though you was on the West Side. You feel me?

Dominic Lawson (06:39.886)
Listen, and Uncle moved up. They started doing nice with themselves. So, know, it is what it is.

Anna DeShawn (06:50.711)
That's such a Chicago thing to say. I I think this is all part of it. My mom coming from Mississippi for opportunity, this legacy of what is the great migration. This idea that I come from Black people who were intentionally marginalized, separated.

what Northern racism looks like, right? I think when I say I'm from the South side of Chicago, these are the stories that ought to evoke in people's minds is just what that looked like. And I think it also is the beauty, the history chilling. Come on, a Bulls fan, through and through, you K sports make us sick, K. Like all these things are part of what for me makes Chicago beautiful. Also,

the people, the experiences, the music, the architecture. But it's also what makes Chicago an easy target. Because Chicago is also situated in the Midwest, surrounded by a lot of redness. And in this political moment and in political history, Chicago has been a linchpin, no matter what movement was happening, as a place to watch, to see.

what the temperature was going to be for the rest of the country. Dr. King came here and was like, wait, this is worse than I ever seen. This is bad because it doesn't look black and white. It's hidden behind these systems that were built and meant to oppress other people and often black bodies. And it manifests itself in Chicago. So we bring all of that to the work. I think that that's why.

we all must really shine a light on all of our identities and all of our parts because it is those pieces that get missed in storytelling if we don't show up as our full selves, right? And so when I say I'm from Chicago, it's all of that. It's all of that.

Dominic Lawson (08:59.79)
For sure, for sure. And you're right though, when you talk about Chicago being in the midst of many, especially in this country when it comes to definitely pivotal moments, you think about the race riots in the early 20s and stuff like that, you think about the 68 convention and all the protests that went around there and things of that nature. And I know you had the privilege of attending the convention this past election cycle.

Anna DeShawn (09:14.262)
yeah.

Dominic Lawson (09:28.57)
for the nomination of Madam Vice President Kamala Harris, kind of talk about that experience and what that meant for you, not just in your work, but also personally for Anna DeShawn.

Anna DeShawn (09:41.099)
The DNC was unlike anything I ever experienced. It was overwhelming. It was a great opportunity. And that first night, I think I talked to you about this, Dominic, I just literally sat there and cried. I had to call my wife and sort of just take a deep breath. I'm surrounded by major media networks with their, you know, thousand dollars worth of lights and people who have assistants and people who have camera people. And it's just me.

Right. And it was an experience that I took on fully. I prepared myself, but there's a certain things you can't prepare for and you try to be present in the moment, but it was an incredible experience. The whole week was just full of new experiences and really just being present in the opportunity that I had to tell the stories to my communities and my audience that tune in.

to hear from me about what's happening at the DNC. It was just a wonderful opportunity. I was able to galvanize sponsorship support around it as well, which it was, I do this full time. So being able to monetize my work is incredibly important. And so it gave me an opportunity to do that, right? While also having some dope experiences, interviewing some really amazing people, people who are leading the country quite literally. And

Getting the opportunity to meet Joy Reid was absolutely the best. That whole story, how that came together is definitely top three all time.

Dominic Lawson (11:19.53)
I we like stories that Dripping in Black How did it come to be? I gotta ask. You can't drop no nugget like that, like skate on by it. Come on, man.

Anna DeShawn (11:22.327)
So

I mean, maybe I learned from somebody who does that through text message, but I ain't throwing no shade.

Dominic Lawson (11:32.056)
Fair enough.

Anna DeShawn (11:36.341)
What happened was, so when you apply for something like the DNC, what happens is you get a different level of coverage opportunity. So there's different badges for different people. Some people only have badges to cover things outside. So all the camera crews out there, some people could only be outside. Some people had opportunity to be on a certain level of the floor inside of the United Center, while other people could go everywhere. And so I was lucky enough that my badge was for everywhere.

I was a roamer. I wasn't stationed, right? And there was a media area where all your top networks were stationed with their lights, desks, doing interviews, all the things. I didn't have that. I was able to walk around. And so every day you could apply to receive a floor pass. So a floor pass meant that you could go down the floors. What most people see on television where the delegates are. So it's only meant for delegates and like

the major networks. So CNN, MSNBC, for example, they had stations, media stations on the floor, but that was it. You could come and go, but you couldn't stay all day. So I applied to get to the floor. I ended up getting it for that day. And I was like, great, yes. Cause they said they weren't really sure if they'd be able to get everybody through. But I got in. And on this particular day, I was like, this is so dope. I saw Joy Reid from across.

from across the stadium floor. I was like, I'm making a straight beeline in this direction. I went over there and I saw other black people. I was like, okay, this is great. And there's a black guy and a black woman. And I leaned over to the black guy and I was like, do you think Joy Reid would talk to me? Like say, like, or take a picture with me. And he looked at me he was like, so what do you do? I can explain what I do and why I'm there. And he's like, well, you know, she's my wife.

like, what? No, she's not your wife. And he's like, no, that's my wife for real. And it looked like they on a break right now. think she'd be, she's everything you think she is. She's hella cool. So let me just see if she's available. I was like, no way. And so he walks over there. Of course she pays attention to him. It's her husband. And then I look up and he weighs me over like, come on, come on. And literally Dominic I literally, I spewed words.

Dominic Lawson (13:36.775)
You

Anna DeShawn (14:00.223)
And she just stared at me and smiled and just very gracious. And then they started talking to her in her ear. And she was like, well, only got a few more seconds. Cause literally they were on the air. They just was on a commercial break. And she was like, was like, wait, do you, would you take a picture with me? She was like, come on, let's go. And she took my phone and she took a picture and it was so great. It came out so cute. And she and I just, and I just told her really at the end, I remember telling her, thank you.

Dominic Lawson (14:00.687)
Hahaha!

Dominic Lawson (14:12.076)
Right. Yeah.

Dominic Lawson (14:24.11)
I love it.

Anna DeShawn (14:29.303)
because she's truly, from where I sit, the only black woman on national news coverage who I feel like actually speaks truth to all the power. And for some reason, she don't miss. And for some reason how she does not get fired while everybody around her gets fired for doing similar, if not less things. For some reason, Joy Reid has been able to break through all of the mess of it all.

Dominic Lawson (14:40.418)
Man, Joy Reid don't miss. She don't miss.

Anna DeShawn (14:59.503)
And for that, mean, I know I said thank you because she continues, every time she gets to show up on television to millions and millions of people, she continues to be able to be a voice for people who have literally been kicked out of those spaces. So yeah, that was like the best moment. There was a lot of really amazing moments, but that's definitely a moment.

Dominic Lawson (15:19.18)
That was. No, that's dope. No, that's dope. And I think that speaks, Anna, to, you know, shooting your shot. You know what mean? Like, listen, I'm just going to go over there and end up talking to the husband like, I'm in there. I'm in that thing now. But but I think also overall, I think what your story highlights is for a podcast or independent podcast or right. Being able to use this platform that you have created for so much more. Right. For so much.

Anna DeShawn (15:27.18)
Yeah.

Anna DeShawn (15:31.613)
Yeah. Yeah.

Dominic Lawson (15:48.664)
for so much more than you can do just sitting on the couch and podcasting with the mic, right? Getting the press pass, going to events, being seen as credible media outlets. You know what I mean? And so thank you for sharing that kind of blueprint with the Dripping Black Family, because I think that's a powerful piece that can definitely propel your podcast and your podcast career to the next level, I think.

Anna DeShawn (16:09.751)
Absolutely. And I think it's also about thinking outside of the box. Right? So I host queer news. News is my business. Yes. And so where is the news taking place? Well, the news will take a place at the DNC. Yes. And so that's where I want to be. You should think about your podcast as a business and where should your business be, right? To align yourself as a subject matter expert in that thing that you're talking about.

Dominic Lawson (16:15.565)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (16:39.487)
are you surrounding yourself with in such a way that would drive somebody else to want to listen to you and to find you credible in whatever that you're speaking about. I think the world is becoming much more open to the idea that news and content creation are viable, are credible, right? And it's just about how you position your own personal brand, how you position and who you are in the world to be in alignment with the opportunities that you want.

Dominic Lawson (16:44.483)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (17:06.891)
You really just have to set yourself up for the opportunities.

Dominic Lawson (17:09.742)
For sure. Set yourself up for those opportunities. No, I appreciate that. And I want to ask, I want to ask the flip side, I'm gonna put you on the spot here because I also know you was at the NABJ and there was, was a certain president-elect who was there as well. Can I talk about that experience a little bit?

Anna DeShawn (17:17.399)
Okay?

Yeah, wow. I debated whether or not I was going to go to that mess. And my daddy told me I had to go and I didn't understand. But I did. I did go. We stood in a very long line. Security was really tight. He was an hour and a half late. The orange man was a mess. He was on full form. You know what I'm saying? Like...

Dominic Lawson (17:32.032)
I remember that.

Dominic Lawson (17:52.814)
You

Anna DeShawn (17:55.221)
He was being exactly who he is. And I think as, as a optimist, I am an optimist. If you show me a glass, it will be half full. It will never be half empty. Even me, I've seen him baffled by the fact that people thought he might show up differently or that this commentary that he was going to be different because he was showing up in front of some black people. now because VP Kamala Harris was running, he was really going to try to.

Dominic Lawson (18:06.67)
great.

Anna DeShawn (18:23.883)
went over to black people. even I'm sitting there, I was like, y'all are wilding. Like he is going to be exactly who he is everywhere. He is about as consistent as they come. Being as consistent, inconsistent. I mean, like he is that guy. And it was, I never thought I'd be in a room with him, who would want to be. And it was, it was wild to see.

Dominic Lawson (18:25.58)
Right.

Dominic Lawson (18:31.278)
You don't right.

Anna DeShawn (18:53.353)
in real time, how narcissistic he really is and how much he really believes and all the things that he spews. And...

Dominic Lawson (19:02.883)
right.

Anna DeShawn (19:07.073)
We're living through quite the time right now, a time that I think most of us thought was far behind us and ones that our parents and our grandparents thought would be far behind us. And it has just manifested itself in a very different way.

Dominic Lawson (19:21.23)
Talk about that feeling. Let's dive there. If it would, cause I think that would lead into what you do with E3 and the Qube and stuff like that. Talk about this moment. is, know, obviously president elect again, you are a black woman, queer in this moment. Run me through those thoughts.

Anna DeShawn (19:23.927)
Yeah.

Anna DeShawn (19:41.759)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Anna DeShawn (19:47.297)
mean, at every turn, the United States of America has found a way in its constitutional documents to ratify that some part of me is not a full person, that some part of me does not get to choose who and what I do with my body. At every turn, one piece of my identity has gone through this phase. And every piece of my identity, there has been a movement that was built

Dominic Lawson (20:06.136)
brain.

Anna DeShawn (20:16.949)
out of complete despair and destruction to fight against the powers and the systems that try to oppress that particular identity. And with all the progress that has been made, our ancestors really did think that some of this was behind us in a major way. And yet again, here we are at a time with the most divisive, problematic president.

we may have ever had, right, in the history of this country, who got elected twice. So I think that there is a reckoning happening again, I think similar to what we've probably saw around the civil rights movement, where our humanity will be judged by the next generation. What do we do in this moment to try to make it better for those that are actually coming after us?

And I feel that in this moment because we saw it with interracial marriage at one point it was, right? That was illegal, right? Literally, you could not. We can talk about gay marriage, literally illegal until it was not, right? Black people being three fifths of a person. This was the standard. Yes, until it was not. And now we have trans folks who literally represent.

less than like 2%, 1 % of the population being demonized. The president ran a two, $215 million worth of campaign ads that were completely just anti-trans. $215 million for one population that represents less than 1%. And then it's just literally the power of media, right? Like this power that the media has to tell these stories. And he chose a narrative that works.

because it's easy to demonize people that most of the country has no relationship with. And that has been the case for every single identity and population that I hold, black women, queer folks, like that has been the easy get and it's proven again, that it's an easy get. So for me right now in this moment, honestly, brother, I'm not sure if we are at the crescendo of this moment, right? Or still at the very beginning of this moment for us, yeah.

Dominic Lawson (22:42.51)
That's a fair question.

Anna DeShawn (22:43.809)
but the civil rights movement didn't start in 1960s, okay? It started long decades before that. And I'm not sure what stage of this moment we're in right now. But what I am clear about is that culture will always lead the way. And if you're listening to this and you're a podcaster, there's some piece of culture that you are helping.

Dominic Lawson (22:47.918)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (23:10.049)
to dictate and to direct with those who listen to you. And there's a big responsibility that comes with that. And I think that this is also a moment where we can't retreat. We have to double down on our stories. As quickly as they make a message, we need to have three messages, right? This isn't a time to be quiet or to be silent or to be tired. This is the moment where we don't get that option.

Dominic Lawson (23:39.064)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (23:39.183)
And I hate that it has to be so polarizing. I wish that there was this type of fire when the world wasn't burning. But here we are. Here we are. And so that's what's inspired me to do the work that I'm doing, to care for those who are the most underestimated, because those are the folks who are going to help me get through these next four years.

Dominic Lawson (24:05.934)
For sure, for sure. And I champion that cause and that's why I think what you do with E3 radio and the Qube is so important. If there was ever a time for us to not silence our voices and tell these stories and let people know what's going on, it's now. It's definitely now. I, 100 % in that fight with you from a different angle.

Because one of the things I said that I had thought about was ending Black is America. But I can't. I can't. Because again, you want to come from black history, pull up. Because you pull up. Right. Exactly. Right.

Anna DeShawn (24:49.099)
Period, because they're coming for everything, right? They're coming for everything and everything is tied together. And so the strategy of dividing us amongst a polarizing issue like trans identities makes it very easy for them to continue to roll out anti-DEI policies, right? Because they feel like all, because for them, all of this is the same. All of this is in alignment, right? But to divide those who are most underrepresented,

Dominic Lawson (25:01.837)
Right.

Dominic Lawson (25:08.782)
correct.

Anna DeShawn (25:18.397)
makes it so much easier for them to be effective. Yeah, we need all the history we can get. We need all the programs teaching young people about who they are and empowering them for this next generation of fighting that will have to be done if we really believe in liberation and freedom.

Dominic Lawson (25:40.462)
For sure, for sure. at the forefront of that fight, Dripping in Black Family, is E3Radio.fm. There's a link in the show notes for you to check out that website and also The Qube and all its amazing programming from Queer News and my personal favorite, Second Sunday, which is just a masterpiece in storytelling and telling your truth and stuff like that. Just kind of walk us through the...

the ideation of Second Sunday, why it's been so effective and why ultimately you wanted to do that show.

Anna DeShawn (26:17.867)
It was the first show I wanted to do. It was the very first show I wanted to do. I wanted to tell Black queer stories about growing up in the church, in the Black Christian church in particular. It was my life. I grew up Lutheran. I grew up Baptist. My father's family started a Baptist church on the South Side of Chicago. But my parents met at a Lutheran church, a Black Lutheran church. Let's get it right, OK? If you want to talk about the differences, we can catch up another time, OK?

Dominic Lawson (26:39.017)
Mm-hmm.

you

Anna DeShawn (26:44.775)
And so I grew up with two Easter speeches and long Christmas Sunday services. I'd go to two services. I mean, it was just all the things.

Dominic Lawson (26:56.13)
I gotta ask you though, did you have all the grease on your face too? I had all the Vaseline on mine.

Anna DeShawn (26:58.775)
All the Grease, all the Vaseline, all the Vaseline. My mama was such a girly girl. I think my mama was so devastated that I was such a tall boy. my gosh. I mean, growing up, bowls, okay, that matched ruffle socks, okay, that probably that matched some bangs that was held together by that foam roller. You understand the situation? It was so black. It was such a black identity, okay.

Dominic Lawson (27:14.958)
I love it.

Dominic Lawson (27:20.808)
I have sisters, I know. I sisters, I know.

Anna DeShawn (27:28.119)
And I love church. I love church. And church has meant so much to me. And it was a place where community, where I found my first community was in church. And it's where I read for the first time out loud to a group of people, right? Where I played my instruments. It was all these things, the culture of church. But church also, once I knew who I was, was not a safe place for me. And the devastating pieces of that.

right, the devastating effects of that. And every time I am with a collection of Black queer folks, promise you, church comes up in some shape, form, or fashion. It can be the most unsuspecting moment, and all of a sudden church happens. And so many of us are church kids and have been harmed by the church. And so many of so much of our stories have been silenced or left to the side because people don't want to take accountability. But I think that there is something so powerful about first person storytelling.

and narratives that show the humanity of people. that we wanted to go, there were so many different ways we could have approached this podcast. And we did. We approached it one way in the beginning and we shifted once we secured a partnership with PRX to tell these stories. And I promise, I'm so proud of how we pivoted to tell the stories in the ways in which we did. It wasn't, it's not, the show,

is not, I don't know the right word in this moment or term, but we're not demonizing the Black church and we're not demonizing a particular person or speaking ill on someone else. What we're doing is showing the impacts of the Black church on Black queer bodies, human experiences that are absolutely universal and you can hear it. And then I think it is in that, that

Dominic Lawson (29:02.647)
Right.

Dominic Lawson (29:12.653)
Sharing human experiences. Human experiences, yeah.

Anna DeShawn (29:23.063)
charges people to think differently, maybe about their own experience or even how they show up in their own lives when it comes to the LGBTQ folks in their life, right? And so that is my hope with that work. Yeah.

Dominic Lawson (29:34.422)
No, it's powerful work. It's impactful work. I still remember the first time I heard it, was like, Anna, Anna, you did it. You did it with this one. And it would make sense that it would be a two-time Ambie-nominated show, right? The thing is, like, for those who are not familiar, the Ambies are one of those tier one awards in our industry. And so when you...

Anna DeShawn (29:38.924)
Hmm.

Anna DeShawn (29:43.659)
Hmm.

Anna DeShawn (29:53.206)
man. Yeah.

Dominic Lawson (30:03.754)
are recognized at that level, you have created a transformational piece when it comes to this podcasting game. And that's what Second Sunday is. Because even when I heard the title, I was sold because I already knew what we're talking about. We're talking about that that piece of like, there's the Sunday that we all have come to know. But like that that other part of Sunday that people don't want to talk about, don't want to discuss, don't want to dive into, talk about that human experience as it relates to.

Anna DeShawn (30:09.015)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson (30:33.154)
you know, the LGBTQ community. And so when you bring that to the forefront, it was impactful for me. It was definitely impactful for me. So thank you for creating Second Sunday for sure.

Anna DeShawn (30:44.895)
I'm so grateful for how it all came together. And it is, we could talk, we could use a whole episode to talk about the journey that was Second Sunday, given like all the ways in which that, all the ways in which that came together, could take up a whole show. And I'm so proud of the team that came together to tell those stories, the journey, the thoughtfulness from everybody.

to make Second Sunday what it is. And in this moment, we are just looking for funding so that we can do seasons three and four. And so that's the path that I'm on right now because I think that podcast has a lot of life left.

Dominic Lawson (31:24.878)
Right.

Dominic Lawson (31:33.43)
Listen, listen, definitely. As we say in the South, a lot of meat on that bone. A lot of meat on that bone, for sure, for sure. And if you would, what's a behind the scenes story from Second Sunday that people may not know? Like maybe there's a story that for whatever reason didn't make it to air or how some stories came to be or something you just like, wait.

Anna DeShawn (31:38.527)
Yo. Yeah.

Dominic Lawson (32:03.03)
What? Because I love wait what moments, right? Like, you know, take me on a BTS move with Second Sunday if you could.

Anna DeShawn (32:12.639)
Okay, there's a couple, but I think the one that moves me the most is the one about Bishop Yvette Flunder. So Bishop Flunder, well-known minister, singer, and definitely top five people on the list of people I wanted to have on the second season of Second Sunday. And because we were working with PRX, they had a professional talent booker.

Dominic Lawson (32:13.932)
Okay.

Anna DeShawn (32:40.905)
And so they were able to reach people we, as independent podcasters who don't have professional talent bookers, right? Don't have the opportunity to always get there easily.

Dominic Lawson (32:47.992)
Correct.

I'm pretty sure there's independent podcasts listed right now. Like that's a thing.

Anna DeShawn (32:55.735)
That is people's jobs. They literally hang around celebrities and they do Hollywood, right? And they book talent. Like that is their whole job. Okay. And so we had an opportunity and they were able to book her. And Bishop Flunder is just one of those North stars for me because of everything she's built. And we're not going to sit here and run her resume, but family, promise you, if you Google Bishop Yvette Flunder.

Dominic Lawson (32:57.91)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (33:24.489)
you will see the litany of work that she has brought to life, right, in her life, in her legacy. And one piece of her life and legacy is being a singer, yes, like a Grammy nominated, probably Grammy award winning singer. And she sings the song, and it's for all my black people, because we dripping in black on this show. Thank you, Lord, for all you've done for me.

Dominic Lawson (33:48.142)
Mm-hmm.

Anna DeShawn (33:53.749)
So she sings that song. Okay. That's who this is. So for context, y'all didn't heard her every Sunday morning for like the last 30 years. Okay. Do you understand? Thank you Lord is the song. And so when we were doing the interview with Bishop Flunder, there was a point where I asked her about the love of her life, Mother Shirley.

Dominic Lawson (34:02.572)
Listen, in early 90s, mid 90s, yeah, listen, about a thousand times a Sunday. So.

Anna DeShawn (34:23.819)
And I knew that her and Mother Shirley sang together with the Hawkins singers. So Walter Hawkins, right? And the Hawkins singers. But what I didn't know was that they had a song together during that time. And there was this song that they would sing on stage and nobody knew that they were singing to each other, but each other. And I was like, what? I went.

I was able to go to YouTube and Google this song and I was able to find the clip, like a video clip of them singing it. And I'm sitting here like, my God, they are in this Christian church. Now this is like traditional Black Christian situation, gospel choir. Okay. Leading a Christian congregation straight up having a lesbian love moment here, singing this song to each other. And I was blown away.

We ended up being able to use a clip of that song in the podcast when she tells this whole story. And it's just one of the most impactful moments for me that came really serendipitously during the interview. And not anything we had like mined for or anything. And I was just like, wow, what a moment to think. Also she shared how they would share hotel rooms together and just like.

Dominic Lawson (35:24.024)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson (35:35.598)
Mm-hmm. Wow.

Anna DeShawn (35:47.761)
Nobody would ever say anything and all these other things. Yeah. There's a moment. So go listen to Bishop of Plunders and you'll hear what I'm talking about.

Dominic Lawson (35:51.822)
Right, right. That's

That's definitely a story. That's Wow.

Anna DeShawn (36:00.979)
Yeah. Cause the lyrics go, grab a hold, don't let go. And they are singing in harmony and it is like, don't let go. And they are like, is like, if these black lesbians are not doing this in the middle of this church, singing this song to these Christians, like if these people only knew, these people only knew, it's a beautiful like moment. Yeah.

Dominic Lawson (36:27.96)
That is a beautiful moment. That is a beautiful moment. Thank you for sharing that. In that same vein though, Having this moment and stuff like that, obviously we know how there are certain sentiments towards the community, right? And right, right. And I've seen a few comments, right? So I'm curious, how does Anna DeShawn deal with the comments?

Anna DeShawn (36:43.379)
yeah, not the sentiments.

Anna DeShawn (36:57.943)
I don't and I get a lot of them. Let's be clear, the trolls be busy. If you look at the ratings on second Sunday podcast, I think it's like a 3.5 or 3.6 and it's because the podcast trolls have gone through and rated it a one or a zero, whatever that is, just because it's queer and it's about the church. I think people are just so incredibly indoctrinated and I get it because I was there.

Dominic Lawson (36:59.95)
Right.

Dominic Lawson (37:07.907)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Right.

Dominic Lawson (37:16.653)
Ray.

Anna DeShawn (37:27.543)
I have, my aunt keeps a lot of things. I'm so grateful she does. And I did this competition when I was in high school for the VFW and you had to break down the word freedom. I it was freedom. And every, for every letter I gave it a different word, like right or something. But one of the letters was R and I was like, religion. There doesn't need to be separation of church and state. God should be in everything.

Dominic Lawson (37:31.459)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson (37:37.474)
Okay.

Dominic Lawson (37:49.101)
Mm-hmm.

Anna DeShawn (37:57.791)
And I was, when she brought this, my speech to me, I was like, first off, this is incredible. Second, wow. Thank God for growth. Okay. Thank God for growth. Thank God for education. Thank God for mentors. There is an indoctrination, indoctrination that happens in church, that happens everywhere. For some reason, Republicans like to use the word grooming. Chile, At the end of the day, it is learned behavior. A known term for many, many centuries.

Dominic Lawson (38:11.918)
Mm-hmm.

Anna DeShawn (38:28.115)
And being in church is a learned behavior and it's a learned activity. And you can, it's so easy to be not only taught, but stuck there. Stuck that this is the only way. Stuck that you don't ask questions. This is what it is, right? This idea of things being very black and white. But when you are somebody whose life is not black and white, does not fit the mold or the context for the situation.

Dominic Lawson (38:46.029)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (38:58.335)
you begin to question how valid, right? Are the teachings that are happening in this very moment. And so for me, when I see those comments, it bothers me so much because I'm just like, y'all, y'all are missing the moment. When you go meet your maker, okay. When you go look God in the eye, you can go and tell you missed the message. Okay. I think.

Dominic Lawson (39:21.155)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (39:23.127)
that you're right in the early 90s, mid 90s, early 2000, what was it? Those braces that was like WWJD, like what would Jesus do? Literally the things Jesus would do are direct opposite of what they're saying people should be doing, how people should be living. And I think that they've just really missed the lesson. And I am an optimist, like I said before, glass house.

Dominic Lawson (39:30.219)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson (39:47.648)
Listen, Anna, I question if they even showed up for the mission, the, for the lesson. So, but go, but go ahead. I'm let you talk though.

Anna DeShawn (39:52.991)
Yeah. No, I mean, I'm telling you like, right. They've really, they've really missed it in the name of power and control. And, and it's hard, it's hard sometimes to help people out of that. And so I don't try because you have to really be in relationship with people to really affect real change. Now our stories help, right? They help people. It becomes an educational tool, right? For people who are open to listening, it can be an affirmation tool.

for people who are open to listening. But people who you really want to change, you have to change or begin to affect change with the people in their circles, right? Because they not gonna listen to you, they don't trust you. I wouldn't listen to them. I don't trust them, right? So the hope is that our messages begin to reach the people who are closer to those who are most harmful, right? Who are willing to listen and question, right?

because at the end of the day, it is so clear to me that they are so wrong. Yes. And I also believe that they are looking at it as though they are just that right. Yeah. That they too are right. And I think they they feel like they are very clear about that. So when I see them trolls on those comments, I just shake my head, right? And try my best to ignore them and continue doing the work that I'm doing because I feel like

doing the work of those who are the most underrepresented is exactly what Jesus was doing. Right. And when you see the manifestation of their beliefs, it looks like billionaires running a country based upon their own pockets. And I don't think that's what Jesus had in mind at all. So I'll take my path any day.

Dominic Lawson (41:49.87)
Right, right. Like I think the fundamental question I tend to have in those moments is if we are created in God's image, then come on now. Like, so this, if we're all created in God's image and we fundamentally believe that, then why would you have these thoughts? Why would you have these, these sentiments? Why would you have these things? But maybe that's just me.

Anna DeShawn (41:59.563)
Well...

Anna DeShawn (42:06.731)
Yeah

Hmm.

Dominic Lawson (42:19.458)
Maybe that's just me.

Anna DeShawn (42:19.531)
They only apply it when it fits their narrative. Right? It only gets applied when it fits their narrative. Yeah. God don't make mistakes until, right? Right. Okay. Ooh. Yeah.

Dominic Lawson (42:22.508)
Yeah. Yeah.

For sure. For sure. And so Drivenin' Black Family, E3radio.fm and The Qube, make sure you go ahead and check out all of those shows from Queer News, Second Sunday and everything that is on.

Anna DeShawn's slate. speaking of queer news and awards, the AMBE award winning queer news, kind of talk about, know, because I think it's important because when you do share your truth and you do share these stories, I think people are impacted, which has come with critical acclaim. And just kind of talk about that piece of your story and.

the critical acclaim and the ambies and the signals and the things you've been able to do in this podcasting space.

Anna DeShawn (43:22.839)
It's really blown me away how well received our work has been out here in the world. know, artists, we sensitive about our, okay. And so it's been really a dope experience the last few years since I quit corporate America and stepped out on faith to do this work full time. And as you well know, and as everybody listening who's independent knows,

Dominic Lawson (43:29.966)
Mm-hmm.

to listen.

Dominic Lawson (43:43.864)
Mm-hmm.

Anna DeShawn (43:52.275)
We need social proof to legitimize us and our work out here in the world. And it's unfortunate, it's like that, but that is how it is. This is how we measure things. We measure people's success by certain determinants. And these accolades and these moments have solidified the work, right? It's sort of like if I show up and say, hey, you know, I work for Apple. You are immediately putting me in a box that, okay, maybe she know what she talking about.

That's because you have an understanding of who Apple is. so those accolades, those honors and nominations have really helped to fuel that for our work, which is incredibly important. I'm now looking to move on to the next phase of our work in 2025, which is being able to leverage those moments of success for business sustainability. Right? This is full-time work for me.

Dominic Lawson (44:23.138)
Right.

Dominic Lawson (44:44.835)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (44:48.445)
And what that means is that I do have to find business strategies, right? That work to sustain life and to sustain the teams and to pay folks, right? And to pay taxes, okay? And all the other things that come along with all of this work. And so it means a lot. It means a lot every single time we get a nomination.

Dominic Lawson (45:05.646)
Right.

Anna DeShawn (45:15.799)
When we win, it means so much to us and the work. And my hope in 2025 is that we really are able to take the work to the next level so that we can experience the next level of growth when it comes to listenership, reach. I think we have a powerful message that more people need to hear. And so that's my hope for 2025 when it comes to queer news.

Dominic Lawson (45:42.67)
Absolutely. Well, I I think, you know, I speak for many independent podcasters, Anna DeShawn, saying thank you for being that blueprint. Thank you for being that trailblazer. Because it's one thing to start a podcast in your closet or in your living room, but it's a whole other thing to get to that business side of things and start talking about funding and contracts and taxes, which

I mean, taxes is, you know, it is what it is, but if you're talking about taxes, it's somewhat of a good thing in a sense because you're growing and you're heading in a certain trajectory, right? But so, but thank you for providing that blueprint. And even on a personal, thank you for helping me guide me through that process with like, you know, our conversations and talks and things of that nature. I got one more question before I let you go, you know, because we got something for you here at Dripping in Black to kind of...

immortalize your time with us and just a small token of saying thank you so much for everything you shared and your journey and showing up unapologetically you, because I think that's something here at Dripping in Black. We definitely champion and want to make sure that we champion it. So, S Squared is going to get that queued up here in a second. And my question here is this, we often talk about legacy here on Dripping in Black. You talked about it earlier at the top of this show, right? And

You know, because I don't know about anybody else. I already know what's coming. You talked about the Legends Awards at the BPA. It's one's coming Anna DeShawn's way. We know as of this recording this morning, the podcast is Hall of Fame was announced. You know, shout out to Twyla Dang and, you know, and being on that, I already know that's coming Anna DeShawn's way. Right. I already know. So when you think about legacy and those things at the end of the day, you want people

Anna DeShawn (47:24.407)
Yes.

Dominic Lawson (47:36.982)
to say what about Anna Tashan.

Anna DeShawn (47:42.007)
Mm.

So I have a mentor, Dr. Wanda Everage that I met during my undergrad time at Drake University. And being a student leader on campus, we spent a lot of time together. And one thing she always reiterated with us, besides being daring to dream, which was one of her major sayings, it was that we were supposed to leave the university better than we found it. That when you walk in here,

If you see something wrong, do something about it, right? Make it better for the people coming after you. I really do hope that the legacy that I leave through the work at E3 Radio, through the work at The Qube is that other Black queer folks, Black queer women, have a blueprint, can see a path that I took that allows them to be bold.

and loud with their art, with their stories for the next generation of folks. There is this beautiful canon that we were left often through literary work of some of our most prized artists in our communities. We're in a generation where multimedia video and audio have that same weight. And I hope that

people are inspired to do something similar. That they're inspired to show up as their full selves because I was able to show up as my full self in the same way that those who came before me were able to show up as their full selves, right? I hope that that's part of the legacy that I can leave. Yeah.

Dominic Lawson (49:35.646)
I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I'm definitely here for it. You you was talking about across, you know, different mediums and platforms and stuff like that. You made me think just now about Cynthia Eviro you know, because me and my daughter and my wife, Wendy, saw Wicked. You know, and you talk about power and being powerful on screen and being unapologetically

Anna DeShawn (49:47.424)
Hmm.

Anna DeShawn (49:52.812)
Yeah

Dominic Lawson (50:01.248)
you. And so that's what I was thinking about when you was talking about just now. when I, like I said, when I, when I see Anna DeShawn and that smile and sits out here doing her work, I'm like, man, that's my friend right there. That's my friend right there, man. It's family right there, man. But I definitely champion you and your work. And I know I want to do better about learning about issues in the LBGTQ community and do that work as well.

You know, so that way I can be a proper ally. And so that's definitely something I am committing myself to here moving forward. And so I want to help boost that, that legacy of Anna DeShawn and her work as well. Of course, of course, of course. So, so like I said, we know, speaking of legacy, we like to, you know, immortalize, you know, our guests here at Dripping' in Black. So I think S-squared has something here for you.

Anna DeShawn (50:43.105)
Thank you, Brown.

Dominic Lawson (50:58.11)
that's gonna pop up here on the screen shortly because again When you come to the dripping in black podcast you are An alumnus of the dripping in black family So there you are on a magazine cover that we're going to be sending to you, you know in the future But we wanted to make sure that you know We were just a token of our no appreciation saying thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for sharing

your path to the success that you have had. And I've always loved that shirt, busy making my ancestors proud, because listen, talk about laying the groundwork and just trying to continue that work. So I just want to say thank you for that. And I just want to give you that token of appreciation through this magazine.

Anna DeShawn (51:35.817)
and.

Anna DeShawn (51:40.343)
Thank you for this. I love this. This is fantastic. Thank you so much. And I think this is what we're all looking to do is busy making our ancestors proud, right? Making those who love us the most proud of us. And if we show up every day doing what we call to do, we'll do just that. So I love this. Thank you. Thank you.

Dominic Lawson (51:44.939)
Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Dominic Lawson (51:52.266)
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson (52:03.938)
I love it. I love it. And we love you, DeShawn, just so, you know, be clear about that. And before I let you go, if you would just kind of shout out where people can find you. I know we talked about E3 radio in the Qube but just wherever else can we find Anna DeShawn and keep up with what she's got going on.

Anna DeShawn (52:06.935)
Okay.

Anna DeShawn (52:20.435)
Yeah, just Google me is probably the best way. Google me. Hey, Anna DeShawn. But for real, for real, probably the best place to start is my Instagram. At Anna DeShawn is probably the best place to start. From there, you can go find E3 radio. From there, you can go find the Qube. We're having monthly podcast salon starting in February here in Chicago. We're going to highlight all of the underestimated podcasters in the city.

Dominic Lawson (52:22.914)
She said, Google me. She said, Google me.

Anna DeShawn (52:48.663)
I'm looking forward to that. So come out to that. And the Qube is set to take off at 2025. So please stay connected. The hub is going to be the newsletters. So where you find me, find the newsletters. Okay. so that you can stay in the know about what we got going on. Cause I'm really excited to finally bring the cube platform to life in the form of an app and been thinking about it a lot and really been diving into the business model of it all. And.

I feel like we're really close to cracking the case. So stay close for that. I'm excited for the opportunity to give it to the people and seeing what everybody thinks.

Dominic Lawson (53:28.686)
Thank so much, Anna DeShawn for coming on the show. And thank you, It In Black family for allowing me to be a guest host again. Again, please make sure you check out Second Sunday. Make sure you check out all the offerings from the Qube, including queer news and everything else. And also again, don't forget Dripping in In Black. Get the hoodies, get the mugs, the stickers and all of the things, dibkdripshop.com. And again, thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. Thank you for supporting and thank you.

for subscribing and until next time, be kind, be excellent on purpose. It's a choice and as always, keep it Black. Peace.

Anna DeShawn (54:07.223)
Mm.

Dominic Lawson (54:10.604)
I think that's it. We got it. Thank you so much. That was awesome.