Dripping in Trans-serv-ational  Leadership featuring Dr. Jason P. McGhee

Dominic Lawson
What's up good people all across the world. This is the Dripping in Black podcast and I'm your host, Dominic Lawson. Well, guest host, Dominic Lawson. I'm a multi award winning podcaster in multiple genres, including black history, mental health and everything else in between. And I have the phenomenal opportunity to once again be the guest host here at Dripping in Black. Thank you so much for the man behind the glass, S Square for letting me do that. Now, before I get into

our today's guest, because we have a phenomenal guest today. You got to see the fit, right? You got to see the Dripping in Black fit that we got going on. So if you want to get a hoodie like this one, make sure you go to www.dibkdripshop.com to get this and others from mugs to other type of merchandise. So that way you are representing the Dripping in Black family. But let me get to the task at hand. He is a true trans-servational leader.

A term he coined to reflect his unique blend of transformational servant and inspirational leadership. With over 20 years in education, Dr. McGee has transformed schools and empowered communities from leading schools to speaking across the country. His journey is one of resilience, impact, and heart. Please welcome to the Dripping Black family, Dr. Jason McGee. What's going on,

Dr. Jason McGhee
Hey, what up, what up, what up? How we doing this afternoon?

Dominic Lawson
I am living a dream, brother. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story of black excellence and expertise with a driven black family.

Dr. Jason McGhee
absolutely. It's an honor to be here, man. I'm excited. I'm excited about it. you know, excellence is what we're about, man. And you know.

Dominic Lawson
I love it. I love it. Ain't nothing wrong with that. I would be remiss because I do have to point out that you are a Spartan just like S squared is. And so just want to make sure I get that in there. cause I know there, yeah, I know there, I know there's some camaraderie there. My little brother is actually going to Michigan state currently. So, so there's a little bit of camaraderie there. I definitely understand that for sure. So, you know,

Dr. Jason McGhee
go green, man. You already know.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Okay.

Yes, sir.

Dominic Lawson
Before we get into our conversation, we just want to know who is Dr. Jason McGee. What makes him tick? What is he all about? Let us know. The floor is yours, brother.

Dr. Jason McGhee
So Dr. Jason McGee, man, is a leader at heart, a person who serves, loves to give and takes care of the people that's in this care. He's a person that has made that a declaration and said, I'm going to find a way to create a life behind that. How do I give and expect nothing in return? That's who I am at the core. am a husband. I am a father.

I am an educator. I'm an activist and I don't know, I've coined that, not coined that term, but I've accepted that term after years of working in the educational space and not realizing or not connecting the two, you know, that you are really active, being an activist for kids, man. And I'm looking to liberate those minds so that they can be excellent in what they do. So I just, I love life.

and I love the, all the stuff that comes with it, the ups and downs, the, the, the quietness and the rumbling, all of it. And, you know, and I'm here for, and the, know, at the end of the day, the goal is how do I continue to change lives? And, you know, that's, that's the mantra, right? That's the, that's the vision. And, as of late, it's like, Ooh, how do I continue to change lives?

But how do I go within to retool so that I am prepared to continue that work? That make sense?

Dominic Lawson
No, it makes sense because, you know, when it comes to the educational piece, the activism activism piece, you know, we're always trying to figure out how can we continue to evolve and grow as leaders, but also how we can continue to grow and evolve by helping other people, which is why I was definitely fascinated by your story. I wanted to have a conversation with you here on dripping in black. I want to go back because I'm curious to.

Was there a person, was it a parent, was it, you know, anybody who kind of inspired that for you early on as a kid, as a teenager, young adult, just kind of walk me through that a little bit.

Dr. Jason McGhee
listen. So yeah, it started with my mom. It started with my mom. my mom, so we're from Detroit, right? My mom worked for General Motors. And so my dad left when I was three. It was us and I had two younger brothers. And so my mom typically worked afternoons, you know, the afternoon shift. And that's from like 3 p.m. to like midnight. And...

Dominic Lawson
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jason McGhee
We got to a point where she was like, listen, I can't continue to afford a babysitter. I need you to kind of step up a little bit and help me out. the look she had in her eye, when she told me that, it was at that moment I made a decision. think that was my first, like when I raised my hand, right? And I was like, hey, I got you mom. Don't worry about it. I'm not going to let you down. And she's like, I need you to make sure your brothers are okay. I need you to make sure that-

After school, they do their chores and they eat. And I start the dinner, I need you to finish it. And I also need you to not let any of our neighbors know that y'all are here by yourselves while I'm at work. And I was like, I was just, I, Captain, I got you. And I'm not thinking how heavy that lift was going to be with two younger brothers. Cause we were still fighting at the time over simple stuff. So I'm trying to lead them and do what I'm supposed to do and not make her upset.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
It was rough, that was the first memory I have of saying, okay, I got you. And it was because of her. And so my love for her, my support for her was the fuel that started this fire, which now I'm like, that was leadership. But I was nine years old. I was nine. And so at that point, I really stopped being a kid and I became this adult in my mind at nine years old.

to lead and to serve. So it started there for me.

Dominic Lawson
Gotcha. And did that show up Dr. McGee like in at school extracurricular activities and things of that nature? of, you know, did that show up there as well?

Dr. Jason McGhee
It did. And it's funny because I was like, I raised my hand. And was like, that was like the visual symbol for me that I'm activating this leadership muscle, if you will, or this superpower. I don't know if it was a superpower then because I was just doing it like, all right. So yep. When I played PAL sports, it was like, hey, we're playing football. And it was like, hey, what do need me to do, coach? I got it. Once I figured out who was in charge, my goal was...

How do I support that person that's leading the charge? So I would raise my hand. So yes, it was in football. When I transitioned to high school or middle school, I was like, I'm gonna get straight A's in ninth grade. I'm gonna do it. And I just did it. When I went to high school and I decided I was gonna play tennis, raising my hand, when I was going to communicate with the principal effectively, listen, I had a relationship with my...

my high school principal, like I knew her, she knew me, and to this day we know each other. So it was those moments, you know? And it was, watch this, it was pushed forward by my uncle, so my great uncle in our family. So in addition to my mom, in addition to my mom kind of giving me this charge or asking me to help her, I had a great uncle, his son, James Wines, and James Wines, used to always come around and we would have family functions.

and he would ask us this one question. And I'm like, why he always do this? He'll come in, family gathering. It didn't matter. Thanksgiving, Christmas, it didn't matter. Whenever he, Tuesday, whenever he came over, he was like, what do know about Africa? What do know about Egypt? Tell me about Egypt. I'm like, why does this guy always ask us about Egypt, man? So when we knew he was coming, we would start getting books and looking up stuff like, all right, we gotta have an answer, because he's going to ask.

Dominic Lawson
Nice little cram session real quick, huh?

Dr. Jason McGhee
Real quick every time, every function that we had. And so he started this knowledge piece for me, like figuring out who we were, who we are and where we're going. So he forced us to kind of look back on the academic and educational aspect of our lives. And so I kind of coupled those together and that was like this fire, right? That started to allow me to push forward, man.

Dominic Lawson
I love that. You know, you mentioned really quickly the relationship you have with your principal from back in the day, right? And I think, you know, when I think about your story, that the idea of servant, servant leadership, trans servational leadership, because I know that's a big part of, your brand and what you do and stuff like that. Talk about why it's important, Dr. McGee, that when you're serving people.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson
that relationship aspect, why that's so critical. Because one of the things I saw in my prep was a conversation and a lecture you were given about being authentic when you show up for kids and being authentic when you show up for people, right? And I think that's the aspect of it. But talk about that relationship that you have with people when you're serving them. Even though you're the leader, you have the title and this and the other, talk about that piece of your journey and your work. Cause I think that's an important piece for people to understand.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like I said, my mom was the leader of our house and she had the vision. She set the vision for it. She set the table. She put everything together. She paid the bills and it was like, okay, I need to help her. She wants me to help her, but she's the leader. I started to just ingrain that into my fabric. I was in school and I'm having this conversation with my principal, it was built from that. Like this person is in charge.

And they can't do it by themselves. They just, know they can't. It doesn't make sense to me for them to be able to run this school by themselves. When I look at my mom, it's like, listen, she can't just run this family by herself. She needs some help. She needs some generals. And once I start to understand sports and got into organized sports, you start to see like, all right, there's a quarterback on this team, you know, and he can't, like I have to block for him. I was a lineman, man. And my coach said, I don't need to know who can block.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
And so I'm like, I got to protect him in order for him to be the best. got to protect him. the same quarterback of our football team when I was in a pal was the bad, the star basketball player. And it was like, it was like, how can I help him? You know? So with the principal, I just, said, I'm going to create a relationship with her. She's going to get to know me and whatever I can do to help is what I'm going to do. so I guess early on, man, I understood.

Vision, but I understood you cannot do this thing by yourself. And believe me, I mean, I tried. I tried. When I was at school, I had great grades. I was a great student. I did well in my Detroit public school education, but I got to a point where I needed some help. And no matter how much I pushed from the inside to do this great work in school, I would hit roadblocks. I would hit...

know, some setbacks, especially in math. And I had my grandma, my great aunt, they're helping me with math. I needed some help even though. So when I had my principal, Ms. Linda Spite over at Mumford High School, I went to Mumford High School in Detroit. Yeah, it started with a relationship. It wasn't because, hey, how can I serve you, principal? It was, hey, how you doing, Ms. Spite? My name is Jason McGee and we built a relationship in conv...

cultivated a relationship, then she started to trust me. Then once she started to trust me, she started to let me do things on my own. She let me lead programs and be part of the technology program. We had just got this grant for computers and she was like, yes, you can absolutely work in the computer lab and you can be the president if you want. So I learned that once I built the relationship, then trust, then opportunity start to come.

So, okay, so now this is kind of my thing now. Subconsciously, build the relationship, trust, opportunities. So that's kind of how that works out in my head, in my heart, and in my work.

Dominic Lawson
No, that makes complete sense to me. And one of the things I'm hearing in that answer also is like the importance of soft skills, right? And having those, you know, being willingness to reach out like, hey, how can I serve you today? How can I help you today? How can I be of assistance today? Right? Not just with your principal, but with the star player that you was talking about as well, because, you know, we were talking off camera about, you know, some of the work that me and my wife do and stuff like that. And I think that's such a critical piece. see

Dr. Jason McGhee
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson
missing often in a lot of schools. It's that relationship building piece, right? You know, it's like, I'm the principal, do as I say. I am the superintendent, do as I say, right? And it just seems like that relationship piece is just so vital to actually getting as a superintendent or the principal, what you actually want to have happen, right?

Dr. Jason McGhee
Right. you know, and that's, and that worked when it worked and it works when it needs to work. Right. No, you're good. You're good. We were saying the same thing and you know, there's, there's a time and a place for that. Right. but I think that, nowadays you've mentioned, you said, you know, you called them, you said soft skills, you know, lately I've been calling them power skills, at least for our generation, right. Human skills.

Dominic Lawson
Right, right. And there's aspects where you have to deploy it, right? No, I totally get it. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I cut you off.

Dominic Lawson
Okay, fair enough.

Dr. Jason McGhee
These are the things that you need now to be able to navigate well to get things done. COVID, I'm sure has a lot to do with that. The integration of technology into our society has a lot to do with that because those skills, you have to highlight those a lot more. I don't know if you had to do them as much in the past. That's why they were called soft skills. But now these are the power skills you need to be able to move from room to room.

to interact with different people. And guess what? I feel like a lot of our young people, they're not strong in those skills. Try having a conversation with a 10th grader right now. It can be a little tough, right? So those skills need to be developed in 2024 and beyond.

Dominic Lawson
You know, you just made me think of a story I heard a while back, right? And it is related to the relationship piece, not just with other administrators and stuff in the building, but also like with students. Probably, I would probably argue our number one asset when it comes to people in the building and the schools and this, and the other, right? Because one of the things that I heard was that like, just because I show up as, especially if it's like a traditionally or predominantly black school or something, right? You know, I think oftentimes educators come to the classroom like I'm black, they're black, I'm gonna instantly relate, right? You know, but when you get to understand and talk to the students, like, nah, you come from, or the very least you look like you are fluent, you well off and this and the other. Yeah, we may be black, but I can't relate to you. And so it's like, you still have to build that trust and that relationship with students. And so I'm curious to hear that part.

Dr. Jason McGhee (16:10.411)
Yeah.

Dominic Lawson
Just specifically when it comes to building relationship with students and why that's important.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yeah, man. Listen, so you are so on point, you know, because here I am. I go into these schools. I finally get through. I get through my teaching. I'm administrator. I don't like that term that much. I always call us leaders, But when I became an assistant principal, I got super nervous because I was like, my gosh, I'm the discipline person. Like that was in my head. I'm the discipline. I got to bring the hammer down.

Dominic Lawson
Right. I got you.

Gotcha.

Dr. Jason McGhee
I got to come in here like the incredible hawk and whenever, and I'm like, that's not how I am. That's not who I am. So how am I going to do that and be successful? How am I going to suspend these kids or hold up the expectations of our school when I don't always throw the hammer at kids. I don't always throw them to the streets. I don't always suspend first. It's just not how I roll. I'm a relationships guy. So I was nervous.

You know what I did walking in schools with a bow tie. I usually got a bow tie on, but with a bow tie on and, you know, wearing a suit every day, you you automatically looked at as, you know, the hierarchy. You are the authority, right? no one that's going to push people off. but you know what? I found a way and did it anyway. I did it anyway. I came with the bow tie, the sports coat, the suit, sometimes the regular tie.

And I walked into space and still was able to create these relationships. The thing about it was, it took some time. It took time. But I always showed up with this idea that, hey, I'm here to serve and I'm going to show you who I am first before we deal with anything else. And I want to get to know you. So I just employed, I listened to kids. I listened to them. And number two, I respected them.

It might be the other way around, honestly. I respected who they were. They're children and I'm grown. My brain is fully developed. Theirs isn't. And I remember when I was in your shoes. So I'd never forget that. And I never forgot that. I was in your shoes once before, so I know what it's like. So let me come in respecting that and respecting that about you as opposed to my position. And I won over so many scholars by operating that way. didn't have to be a bulldog assistant principal. I didn't have to be. And you know what? They respected me in return. They hated to disappoint me. And so that's how we did that, right? But back to your point about, you said there was a video I talked about being authentically you. Yup. I became very self-aware of who I was and how I operated.

Dr. Jason McGhee
And I said, that's the best place for me to be. And whenever I was not in that space, trying, cause don't get it twisted. There were moments where I was like, all right, I'm King Kong today because y'all about to have a food fight up in here. And I had to, you know, but that only lasts for so long. I can't do it for that long. Cause I'm like, are you fake? You know, cause kids can see through you. Right. And I got more results when I said, what do you mean about to have a food fight? You know, or I got tipped off.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
because of the relationships, even from the ones who might be involved. Hey, listen, we over here trippin', we bout to do it. I just want you to know, you just need to know. And I'm like, good luck. And we were able to shut things down. So you see what I'm saying? So it's like, when you bring yourself to the table and understanding how to ebb and flow and move, then you can start having the relationships that's going to lead to you being effective in whatever it is you do. That's how it worked for me. That's how it worked for me. I understood who I was, man.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dominic Lawson
No, I love that. love that. And dripping in black family. If you want to see other YouTube video channels and, more of Dr. McGee kind of spitting the knowledge, if you will make sure you go to www.drjmcghee.com for more insight on what he does and what he's all about. It's phenomenal content there on his website and more. Dr. McGee, I want to ask you this because, and I guess I'm reminded of this because it's an election year. And so when there's a new president.  Right. They always talk about the first hundred days, the first hundred days, the first hundred days. I'm going to do this first hundred days. I'm going to do that. And so you are, you know, a bit of a turnaround specialist when it comes to schools and turning them around and stuff like that, based on your track record and things of that nature. So with all that being said, I'm curious when you walk into a building and you know, they, don't want to call them low performing. I just want to say there's, there's, there's, there's some things we can improve on. Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yeah

Dr. Jason McGhee
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson
Do you have a doctrine like that? in the first 30 days, we're going to establish this or the first hundred days we're going to establish that. Like, when you walk into a school that you're trying to turn around, what's the process in that those first critical couple of weeks, couple of days, walk us through that process. Cause I think this is something that's, that's, that's universal, not just in schools, but like in organizations and everywhere else. So just kind of walk us through the Dr. McGee doctrine of turning around a school, if that makes sense.

Dr. Jason McGhee
man, that's funny. I love it. love it. I never thought about myself as a turnaround specialist, but I look back, I'm like, we did turn things around. We turned the corner. So, nah, man, you got to understand when you come into a school as a new leader, you have to understand that the school has been there long before you. And there are staff members that have probably been there way longer than you. And they might be, well, you know, more seasoned than you in education. So.

Dominic Lawson
You

Of course, yeah.

Dr. Jason McGhee
You have to come in and really understand the culture. Get your temperature on the culture, not necessarily the climate. Those are kind of two different things, but understand the culture of that school and that community, the student body, the parents. What is the culture? Is it a fast paced culture? Is it an aggressive kind of culture? There's some cultures that are academically aggressive and you're like, you have to understand that. So if you come into a school that's academically aggressive and you're focus or the way your doctrine is, relationships first, they're going look at you like you crazy. Like, you understand we're high performing, this is what we do and you coming in here slow, we are moving fast. So when I came into certain schools, I wanted to make sure that at first it takes more than 30 days, but the first 30 days, the vision, the focus of the first 30 days is to listen, absorb the culture. Don't change anything, don't implement.

You know, your values and your belief systems, right? The first 30 days, the first 60 days? No, no. I think the first thing you need to do coming to a building, to a new school, to a new environment is understanding that culture. And what I mean by culture is the collection of behaviors of the individuals that are in that space. So yeah, each school is going to have a certain type of culture that you need to understand.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
And understand. You got to understand. So it takes a while to bring it all in. I'm talking about not just how the teachers operate, the teachers and how they operate with their union. How do the teachers communicate with their parents? What are the teacher expectations of the scholars? Where do they, how do they eat lunch? How do they feel about doing recess duty if it's an elementary school? You know, what do they do?

on their planning periods. What type of candy do they like? What's your makeup and where are they from? The elementary school where I was, it was mostly middle class white women who were...

How do I say this? I want to say, my man, Dion Cole, convention, vintage, I'm sorry, vintage. They're a vintage, right? They're seasoned. They know the system. They know the community. They've been there, right? And they are the ones that are really leading the school. These five women were in charge. So who are they? And who's the second tier? So understanding the culture is the first thing you want to do. Start listening, right? And then start...

Dominic Lawson
Mm hmm. Gotcha. Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
to present yourself after those first 30 to 60 days. Who am I? You should be, you know, again, listen to parents, listen to scholars and make it formal. It doesn't have to be all informal, but make them formal. Parents should be coming in, having conversations and coffee with you. Now, not just in the morning, because people work. What about after school? What about the evenings? You have to keep all those things in mind. So understand the entire culture.

Not just what teachers are thinking, not just what the support staff, but the scholars, the families, the people that live on the street of the school. I would go door to door. I would go to some of the houses and say, Hey, I'm Dr. McGee. I'm the new principal here. I just wanted you to know who I am. So now you starting to weave yourself into the fabric of that community. That's how I was started.

Dominic Lawson
I love that so much. And because you're taking this 360 degree approach, not just for the school, but the community it sits in. Right. It reminds me of something my principal would do from across the street. Like even though that house didn't have any kids to go to that school, they say, Hey, listen, your grass is a little high. Do me a favor. Kind of keep it cut. If you need some assistance, you know, I'll throw a few dollars your way because like

That's a reflection on our school because you're right across the street from one another, right? know, from one another, right? And so that can be problematic. So no, I love that approach for sure. And I love the part you talked about, like it's not just the students and the teachers, but it's the support staff and even from the janitorial services. I really love that piece of what you're talking about for sure.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yeah.

Dominic Lawson
But you know, Dr. McGhee is hard for a new principal to come into a building and not just want to change everything, right? Like, you know, it's really tough. Like, you know, I gotta make an imprint. I gotta make a name. Like, well, it's been low performing. I gotta get rid of all this stuff. But I love your approach of like, stop, listen, let's see what works and then let's adjust where we need to adjust. I love that piece. I love that piece.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yeah, you do.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Mm-hmm.

Man, there's room for it because that same school that I'm telling you about, when I took over that school, yeah, we were in the bottom 5 % academically in the state. And I took on the school knowing that. What I didn't know was that the superintendent had plans for the school to become an international baccalaureate world school. And I had an idea of what IB International Baccalaureate. I knew what it was, but didn't know what it took to get there. didn't hear about it in public schools, especially urban schools. So we were sitting there and she was doing her state of the schools address and I'm listening and she said, yeah, we want this school to become an International Baccalaureate school. I'm like, why didn't they tell me that in the interview? I just interviewed two months ago. Why didn't they tell me? I don't know how to do that. So...

going from an IB, I mean, I don't know, have you heard of international baccalaureate schools?

Dominic Lawson
I have, I have, I don't know much about them, but I have heard of their existence for sure.

Dr. Jason McGhee
man, some people consider those the gold standard of schooling across the world. So wherever Ivy school you go to, usually there's a language that's tied to it. You want to have a very similar academic experience. And it's an amazing experience, an academic experience. And she said, this is what we're going to do. And I'm like, whoa, nobody told me that. I don't know if I know how to do that. So how do I take this low performing school and get them to this gold standard of this school model?

Dominic Lawson
Okay.

Dr. Jason McGhee
So there was some urgency there. don't know. I got it. We it. We got to do it. But how do we do it? So yeah, you're right. And as a leader, you might be wired to come in and start flipping tables over and making things happen. And that might work. It might work if that's how you are, if that's how you are. because if that's a strength for you, then you, you manage that, you know, but I think good coaching and maturity allows you to do it that way. Cause sometimes

Dominic Lawson
Gotcha. For sure. No, for sure. Right.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
You might lead like that and not do it in the right way. And it comes off the wrong way. You're turning people off and they're scared and they're nervous. it's so as a leader, that internal work is going to be super important if you have to come in and do that. Cause I'll tell you right now, Dom, if I had to go into a school and they said, listen, I know how to do it. I can do it. You know? And I will be able to. I don't like it. That's not my preference.

Dominic Lawson
That's fair.

Dr. Jason McGhee
But I know how to do it that way.

Dominic Lawson
Right. And you basically, you have to adjust for the scenario and the situation that you're walking into. So yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. No, I appreciate that. Let me ask you this, Dr. McGee, how has, you know, your leadership style and things of that nature show up as a family man, your husband, father, things of that nature, kind of walk me through how that shows up there at home.

Dr. Jason McGhee
That situation leadership is

Dr. Jason McGhee
man, a lot of question. it's school, I always rocked around this idea of school, families, and communities. And as a leader, you're leading in all these places and all these spaces you are. I have a premise that says, you lead you first. So wherever you go, you're a leader. I think everybody's a leader. So at home, my leadership style at home is very similar.

Dominic Lawson
You

Dominic Lawson
Okay.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Why? Because it's my superpower. It's my superpower. So I do, I lead with this idea of serving my family. That's why I cook. So we mentioned off camera how much I cook all the time. Why do I cook? Well, I cook because it is my number one way to my family to show that I'm giving to them and I love them because I'm giving them something.

Dominic Lawson (30:54.834)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jason McGhee (31:07.052)
I get really upset when I'm done cooking and the food is hot and then I sit at the table and they're not there or they take their time to come down. I'm like, it's going to get cold and then you're going to judge me and like, this is nasty. I'm like, well, it wasn't nasty 15 minutes ago when it was hot. But now you take it all day. Cause I got some teenagers, man. And they teenage. They just, they out here, teenagers. I'm like, did you just hear me say the food is ready? Or huh? Why? I just called you.

Dominic Lawson
Hahaha

Right.

Dominic Lawson
Yeah, teenagers do be teenager. That's for sure. 100%. 100%.

Dr. Jason McGhee
So, so again, I cook because a part of my core value system is to serve, right? My wife, my wife is, she's an OBGYN and a physician leader out here in Grand Rapids. And she's making her way up the ladder like nobody's business because she's really phenomenal at what she does. And as her husband, my whole thing is to be able to, to serve her. And so that's what I do. I serve. So.

Dominic Lawson
Okay.

Dr. Jason McGhee
We talked about that trans-serv-ational leadership. I really took time to think about that. This transforming, this serving, and then this inspiration. So that's how I am at home. And my kids get to see it too. So I would love to hear from them, right? Because they see me as a principal in the school. They see me as a dad. And I wonder if they think it's the same or similar. They might say, well, dad, you yell more at home than you do at school.

Dominic Lawson
You

Dr. Jason McGhee
Cause that might be accurate. might be a little bit more comfortable with my kids, right? Cause it's like, we all we got, you know, we ain't going nowhere. So I don't have to hold up this professional exterior a thousand percent of the time. But don't get it twisted, man. I'll come in and when I'm not happy, I'm emotional. So my emotions come out.

Dominic Lawson
Right, right.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dominic Lawson
Not a

Dominic Lawson
You, I got you. Yeah. Yeah. You may not flip tables at the school. We flip tables at the house with me a few times. I told y'all I'd come downstairs and eat his food. Nah, I'm just messing with you. Right. Fair enough. Fair enough. You know, it's interesting because you talked about your wife being an OBGYN and stuff like that. And what you do, it is clearly, like you say, like you definitely have a, a, a household that has a culture of serving, right?

Dr. Jason McGhee
Right, it happens sooner at home than it does at school.

Dominic Lawson
So, and you talked about your kids just now, like how do you teach and implement those values and doctrine to them, both you and your wife, by the way? Cause like I said, she's in that role as well as, you know, based on what she does.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yep. Man, listen, I really feel like as a father, because I'm really in tune about being a dad, it's big for me. I feel like, I not being a strong father? Am I not teaching? Because I've been looking at my kids and like, what are we doing? Your mother and father, like for instance,

Dominic Lawson
Yeah.

Dominic Lawson
Hahaha

Dr. Jason McGhee
One of the things we want to do, we're shifting from like the holidays, right? And like giving them all this stuff, like for what? Like, why don't they get, they don't even want these things. So we're trying to do more experiences, like experiences over things. That's kind of like our thing now. And I'm trying to get them to, for it to be their idea that, hey, on Christmas, here's what we're going to, we should give this to this family. We should go, sir, I want them to do it.

Dominic Lawson
Okay.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Right? Because we've been showing them, but I want it to be their idea that we're going to go out and serve people and go to the homeless shelter or deliver food or meals on wheels. I want it to be their idea. They're not there yet. They're not there yet, And it's like, too many people. So what we do is we really model hard, though. We model hard.

Dominic Lawson
They too be as a teenager, huh?

Dominic Lawson
For sure, 100%.

Dr. Jason McGhee
So they see us, man. see us out in the community. They see us doing work. My wife's in Jack and Jill. She's a link. I'm an alpha. We're out in the community, we're out in the community doing work all the time. And in the house, they'll see me. I'm intentional about making sure they see me serving her. Right? They see me out here doing, and I'm like, it's going to catch on at some point. I'm hoping. So.

I didn't switch my mindset to a gardener, man. I'm like, you know, I plan to see, I'm a water it. And hopefully we get a good harvest. know, so that's what I'm constantly working on it, man. I don't, I don't even know why.

Dominic Lawson
Right. That, that, no, for sure. For sure. I think that's the, that's the, that's the plight of parenthood, right? And teaching and being in education, by the way, that delayed, you know, you know, it's like, you just kind of hope like as you're implementing this stuff and this and the other, and then they'll probably come to you and they get 35, 36. You're like, you know what, dad? You know what you was trying to teach me when I was 16? Like at the time I thought you was being crazy, but now like,

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yeah.

Dominic Lawson
yeah, I get it now. Cause my wife, you know, we have kids and stuff like that. And like I said, she taught in the classroom for over 10 plus years. And so now she see kids in the grocery store and stuff like that. Ms. Lawson, Lawson, Ms. Lawson, you know, you remember how you made those read those articles and stuff. Now I write for the paper and or something like that. I wrote this piece and is he on the other side that delayed gratification.

Dr. Jason McGhee
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dominic Lawson
That is why educators should be part of, you know, apply for sainthood because it's like, because like you're just drilling and drilling and drilling. Like I just need like 2 % of this to just stick. Just 2 % of this to stick for you to be that, cause I want you to be this productive citizen in society. And I think that's why I admire what you do, what S square does, what my wife does and stuff like that. Because I think educators do this effect.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Hahaha

Dr. Jason McGhee
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson
magnificent job of teaching students what we need for them to be for themselves later, as opposed to what we need them to be for us right now. Right? Right. You know, because I think a lot of times people forget that like, I am your, I am your leader. You are here to serve me. I need you to do this so I can look good on these TPS reports or whatever. But I think educators really have this knack of like,

Dr. Jason McGhee
Mm-hmm.

Thanks.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson
really pouring into students and other people for that matter to be for themselves what they need to be later in life and now they need for us to be for us for us right now. So I really appreciate you sharing that and stuff like that for sure.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yeah, man. Yeah. no, I'm good.

Dominic Lawson
For sure. Okay. Well, you're going to say something. I didn't want to cut you off. Okay. Okay. Cool. So I did want to get into the cooking, man. Like, you know, kind of, kind of walk me through that. Your love of cooking and what's the favorite dish and what's the dish that, you know, that the family dad making what? I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna hit the table before he finished cooking. Like walk me through the cooking journey a little bit.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yeah.

Dr. Jason McGhee
man. right. So cooking, man. Yeah, I love to do it. It really started for me finding a way to decompress from work. Yep. When I was working on my doctorate, was a head principal. I'm trying to turn this school around. I'm commuting. And so when I came home and I would figure out what we're going to eat, because my wife's not, she can make some stuff, but it's not her thing. So.

Dominic Lawson
Okay, fair enough. Yeah.

Dominic Lawson
Gotcha.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Default, we got to make it happen. And I've been used to it because I've been doing it for a while. So I was nine, but I really wasn't good at it until I got married and we really had to do it. So it started as decompressing. I was chopping the onion one day and I realized, first of all, I'm not using a lot of mental power to do this. I'm starting to relax. And I got used to loving chopping onions or just chopping food up, right?

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dominic Lawson
Okay.

Dr. Jason McGhee
My wife's a physician. I'm a principal. We got three kids. For a while, couldn't even... Our meals, we had to do HelloFresh, like a food service, Hello Chef or whatever. And so with that, that really took it to another level because I'm like, all right, I've got these recipes here. And after a while, after a couple of months, I'm like, I can make this. I can do this. And so we canceled the service and I would look at the cars and just get the stuff and do it from the cars.

Dominic Lawson
Right. Right. Yeah.

Dominic Lawson
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Then I don't know what happened with the recipe cards. They're gone. And so I was like, all right, let's get creative. And that's one of my spaces. I was an art teacher, man. Yeah. So I have this creative brain and I think that's where the best stuff comes from me. right now we can look in the refrigerator and my wife and my kids, but ain't nothing to eat in there. Let me get to it. I sit there and look, hold on. I got you. You ever had potato league soup? No.

Dominic Lawson
Hahaha

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Okay.

Dominic Lawson
Pray.

Dominic Lawson
Yeah.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Me either, let's have it. And so the other day we had potato leek soup with fried green tomatoes.

Dominic Lawson
So basically you're like the MacGyver, right? You're like the cooking MacGyver where he's like, hmm, no, I can fix this. I can figure this out. I can figure this out. I love it.

Dr. Jason McGhee
DEADLESS!

Dr. Jason McGhee
Listen.

Yup, yup. Now don't know if I need to be on Chopped or something like that. I don't know. That's a little...

Dominic Lawson
Hey man, listen, I don't know. You figuring stuff out like MacGyver, man. You might want to consider that. Hey Food Network, call my man. Call my man. Yeah, put him on real quick. His website is www.DrJMcghee.com. Make sure you check that out. Food Network and everybody else that want to check out Dr. Jason McGhee's content and things of that nature.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Put him out real quick.

Dr. Jason McGhee
You

Dominic Lawson
No, man, I love that so much. And we had that same service and we did the same thing. Like after a while, like I didn't make this about three, four times. I think I kind of got it now. So, but, but, you know, and that's where it knows this. And I said at the top of the show that like, obviously I can't get out of, I can't get out of here with you in this conversation and not have a mental health, behavioral health conversation, because one of the, the, one of the videos that you made was like a principal.

Dr. Jason McGhee
All

Dr. Jason McGhee
Ugh.

Dominic Lawson
a mental health day or like a self care day, I think is what you call it or whatever. Talk about that aspect for you and self care and things of that nature when it comes to this work.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Man, when you are leading an entire school, entire community, and you looked at it as their leader, it doesn't stop. It doesn't stop. You go from meeting to meeting, from bell to bell, to classroom to classroom, before school, after school, late night. It just doesn't stop. You have the weekends, right? So Friday is not really part of the weekend, because you get home around 6, 7 p.m.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
You know, you go to sleep, wake up Saturday, you might have a Saturday. Sunday gets here and you're thinking about Monday. You're planning for Monday, the staff meeting. What are you going to say for the week? What team do you, you're strategizing on Sunday. There was rarely any downtime. You know, you have to really navigate your mind, your heart and your spirit to really find that place where you can wusa, if you will, and and process.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
So I found it to be very taxing. And I got to a point where it was like, wow, how sustainable is this for the long-term? And you know what, Dom, I found out that as an assistant principal, I would closely watch my principals. And with their focus on the job, meeting all these demands and deadlines, I saw a lot of stuff happen. I saw a few of them went through divorce. Several of them went to the hospital.

Dominic Lawson
Okay.

Dr. Jason McGhee
for stress induced ailments. And I'm like, yo, that can't beat me. I don't want that. And then it started to happen to me. I was feeling woozy and having headaches and I had to be told to go home. And I'm like, what is it? I don't feel that bad, but the stress. So one day I decided, this was the start of it. I said, you know what? I was having a great day.

Dominic Lawson
Yeah.

Dr. Jason McGhee
I felt good and I called in and said, Hey, I'm not coming to work today. What's wrong? I'm good. I'm just, I'm not coming. I felt great. When I got some breakfast, I think I hung out with my, I got breakfast with my wife. I hung out at the house. I just was, I felt great. And I was like, yo, this is, this is something. How do you start taking care? I started taking care of me. I need my kids to have me for a while. and so I would do that, you know, a couple of times, you know, once a month, maybe.

Dominic Lawson
Mm-hmm.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Then I started thinking, all right, how can I really, how do I stay in this without burning out? Man, my doctorate research was on principle burnout, principle turnover, principle retention. And here I am trying to tell everybody to stay in it because we got to stay in it for the kids. We got to stay in it for the families. And I'm sitting here about to catch on fire, trying to keep the fire from burning myself out. So I had to make a hard decision to ...

to take a step back and say, what's really going on? And it was hard for me because for last 20 years, this is what I do and I'm really good at it. I'm really good at people. I might not be the best principal in the world, but I promise you, I promise you, I am the best people person in the world and I can keep a school together and I can move a school forward, but I'm about to internally combust.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
So what am I supposed to do, keep doing it?

So went back to my purpose and realized I got to take a step back. And mind you, all this learning, I'm really gravitating towards PBIS. So just positive behavior, intervention and support. It's the social emotional learning. When I started learning about that, I'm like, this is what it is for our kids. But this is what we need for adults. My teachers were burning out left and right. They need social emotional learning too. Then I realized leaders need social emotional learning too.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Like we have to focus on this wellness because it's a lot. It's hard when you're the principal, you're the counselor, you're the social worker, you're the custodian, you're the teacher sometimes. Because guess what, COVID, you know how I was in classrooms like crazy teaching because subs weren't showing up. Teachers were sick. I'm teaching physics. I'm teaching chemistry. I'm in the math classroom, English, and this is every other hour and still running. You see what I'm saying? So about to blow up from the inside. So wellness.

Dominic Lawson
Yeah.

Dominic Lawson
Right, for sure.

Dr. Jason McGhee
took a front seat, man, and said, listen, I'm not about to one, get a divorce. Number two, I'm not about to be in a hospital somewhere laid up, you know, and I'm not going to die in the school. Even though I give my blood, sweat and tears, I'm not willing to die on the floor and be moved out and then replaced by somebody else just like that because the system has to keep rolling. I do have value and I want to figure out, you know, I want to keep that value.

Dominic Lawson
For sure.

Dominic Lawson
correct.

Dr. Jason McGhee
for years to come and not just pass out in the middle of a school. the wellness piece, listen, I had a therapist, I have a coach. Those are the things that I keep myself in bounds so that I can be great and be excellent in what I do.

Dominic Lawson
For sure, for sure. No, that burnout thing is real and taking that time out to have those mental health days and maybe even a long-term sabbatical, which if I'm not mistaken, you're currently kind of on right now, right? To kind of reprocess, reset, refocus, retool, recharge, if you will, right? No, that's the piece. Kind of, you want to share a little bit about the sabbatical that you're on and yeah, kind of walk me through that a little bit, yeah.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, man.

Dr. Jason McGhee
you.

Yep, so again, all this stuff is happening and you're like, what's my purpose? Like, what am I supposed to be doing? And the sabbatical, this is when it really kicked off for me. I was buying some skittles for some kids for attendance, an attendance challenge we were doing. I was buying candy and my nine year old said, well, dad, is that candy for us or for your other kids?

Dominic Lawson
Yeah.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Ruh.

Dominic Lawson
Do hit a little different, don't it?

Dr. Jason McGhee
a little different, right? So I was like, man, my kids are with me every day. When they come from school, they get dropped off at my school, they see me, but they didn't have all of me. So I'm like, I got to figure this thing out. And then education was changing. Education with AI was shifting and me not being able to process, because I'm always just moving and making decisions and moving and making decisions. I don't know how to lead the next generation of education, this next wave.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
without taking a step back and saying, let me just look at the land and see what's going on because I don't have time to do it as a principal. So I couldn't do the work in the building and look at how to lead all these educators and all these families and all these scholars. I couldn't do it while being in the seat. So I decided I was going to take a step back. Now I didn't know it was a thing. I thought I had to resign and come back later.

So I had resignation papers in hand, like I'm go ahead and resign. And I just do this on my own. And my superintendent was like, well, you know, you can do a leave of absence and just, you know, and you have a year. So I said, what? She said, you have a year to go and explore and do what you need to do. And then in June, you can decide if you're coming back or not. So let's try to do that. And I said, bet let's do that. So, you know, they call it a leave of absence. I call it a sabbatical.

And that's what I'm doing. I didn't left the school, which was hard for me to do. I cried from April to June every day. Every day. The kids was crying. Some teachers were crying. Most were, not most. About five were excited that I left.

Dominic Lawson
Mwahahahaha

We get out of here, man. Let's go.

Dr. Jason McGhee
At four o'clock they were like, yeah, good. We don't know, don't you, bro? But you you always going have that. I had about five, I had like 60, so 60 staff members. But yeah, I decided to take a step back. And so now I'm on sabbatical and I had three goals for my sabbatical. Number one, to write a book. Number two, sharpen my educational saw. So get better as a leader. And then number three, the third piece for me was to ...

Dominic Lawson
Yeah, of course, of course.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Be with my family, man, and make sure that my kids are good because I always told parents, your high school kid, your middle school kid needs you way more now than they needed you in elementary. And here I am, my kids like, bro, you with us, we getting the fumes of you. My wife was getting my fumes, man. I'm falling asleep at eight o'clock in mid conversation. So I had to fix that. So that's what the sabbatical is about. Writing a book. I'm in some educational policy.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
fellowships right now and I'm loving on my family,

Dominic Lawson
I ain't mad at it. I ain't mad at that at all. I really appreciate this conversation and the time we've had Dr. McGee, I'm starting round third heading home here. wanna again, thank you for what you've shared. Thank you for what you do for your community and everything else in between, man. I wanna ask you this. Like I said, I mentioned that we're in a election year and I'm not trying to get political here, this and the other, but I got it. I got it, but.

Dr. Jason McGhee
I'll be.

I'll do it.

Dominic Lawson
no, but the thing is, it's like one of those talking points or talking tools or whatever that usually comes up in the election cycle is education. Right. I guess I would just be curious from your standpoint, from your vantage point, no matter who's in office, no matter who's in the Congress or whatever, no, what would you like to see done at the federal level that trickles down at the local level, the grass root level, when it comes to education and ultimately helping these students to become.

citizens in this country.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Man, that's a really good question. know, because when you look at, I can go real deep with this because I can look at, you know, the ways in which the federal government, you know, has kind of disrupted what we do locally in schools with money. But I think that there's a responsibility for all of us. So if the federal government is going to be involved in education,

make sure that if we're giving funds to schools, allow those schools and our school districts to the freedom to do what they need to do for their communities with those funds and not tie too many stipulations of getting those funds or not getting those funds based on some metrics that they create when they don't necessarily have a view of what the community needs. And then at the national, at the state level, the, you know, very similarly, right? How do we have waves?

pathways so that school districts can make the decisions they need without feeling that there are some strong allegiance to the state that has to be done. These metrics have to be, and I get it, but let's loosen the ties on that so that schools can be as creative as they need to be to serve the people that's in their care. Because again, they're at a higher vantage point, but those school districts and then those schools...

are in the weeds with the families and the scholars and they know what's needed. And oftentimes it's not necessarily what the state or the feds are looking to. But at the same time, this view of excellence can be trickled down. So if there's excellence at the federal level that's being highlighted and showcased, let that trickle down to the state and the states. Who are the excellent individuals in schools and leaders who are serving our people and highlight? And at the same thing at the school level.

Let's focus on what it means to be excellent in these high profile positions. If leadership is, you know, the top in our government, what does a good leader look like? What do they inspire? Do they inspire hope and change and optimism? And that there's a way, there's a way to do this. There's a way to transcend your situation and your circumstance.

Dr. Jason McGhee
How can our federal government help showcase that? How do our states help showcase that? How do our local and school districts showcase that level of excellence that anybody can obtain? Let's start pouring into our families that way, along with the finances to do it. So if we can have that balance there, I think that we'll be in good shape. But at the same time,

Dominic Lawson
Of course, of course.

Dr. Jason McGhee
We have to start turning the corner in education as well and making some tough decisions on what school looks like for the kids that are now in school. Those kids were born after 2000. They think differently. They operate differently, process differently. So what is school going to look like for them to serve them? Because the 1950 model isn't working.

Dominic Lawson
Right.

Dr. Jason McGhee
I need that work to be done too. So I can talk all day about that, but those are a couple that come to mind as we get ready to be better. And with an election at hand, what does that look like for those at the top making some of these decisions?

Dominic Lawson
You know, it's interesting. Thank you for all of that, by the way. You talk about the 21st century learner and how, you know, things evolved and changed in 1950s model. My daughter was having a conversation with her grandmother and she was talking about, because I podcast professionally, you know, this is my, it's my day job. And so.

Dr. Jason McGhee
okay.

Dominic Lawson
She was talking to my daughter. She like, do you realize that when you were born, your father's job did not exist? Like that is how fast, and she's 17 now. It's like your father's job, that was not a thing. And now here we are, right? So no, when you talk about the speed of change and stuff like that, and I feel like it's getting faster by the year. Like it's getting faster by the year. It is like almost hard to keep up with, right?

Dr. Jason McGhee
I

Dr. Jason McGhee
It is.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yep.

Dominic Lawson
for sure. And so before I last ask that last question, I just want to remind the Drip in the Black family again, if you love what we were talking about here on Drip in the Black with our amazing guest, Dr. Jason McGee, make sure you go to his website, www.drjmcgee.com. We should have a link there in the show. Hey, look at that right on cue. Appreciate that brother right on cue. You're gonna get a producer credit for that probably. Make sure you go to that website to check out.

everything he's doing and this and the other. If you want to have a conversation with him, he has a contact button there on his website for you for easy access. And it looks like S-square is going to cue something up for you. You want to share something with you before we let you go as well. But my last question is this, man, because let's say there's somebody in a community, they don't have kids that go to a school or they don't work at that school, but they want to be active in the community. They want to be a supporter. They want to be a stakeholder in that

particular school, what are one to two things that they can do to be proactive in that school to help support that school in this journey of creating this 21st century wholesome learner?

Dr. Jason McGhee
In that school, man, I would say, listen, one, reach out to the principal and sit down and have a conversation with the principal. That's one of the fastest ways you can have a direct conversation with somebody who can make change, make some decisions. the school's PTA. If you can afford it, do it. Be that voice. Be that non-traditional parent, if you will, and get on that PTA so that you can.  You know, understand how things are working and then what influence you can bring to the table. Go to school board meetings. That way now you're having a conversation at the district level, which encompasses most of the schools. But those are three quick ways. Yes, these are conversations, these are relationship pieces. These are ways in which you can have an influence in the school because going to the school and yelling and fussing when something's not right, you don't always get heard that way.

But if you go in and start building those relationships with those change makers, those difference makers, those ones who can make things happen, then now you're being heard. Now you're being heard in a different way. So I would say that to parents. They want to be engaged and enfranchised in that space.

Dominic Lawson
There it is.

Dominic Lawson
I love that. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think again, I think a lot of times people think, you know, if I got a kid in the school, know, I'm sending them to school every day. You know, I've done my part or, you know, if I don't have a kid in the school, like, you know, there's nothing I could do, but I appreciate some of those action steps that people can do to take, you know, invested interest in the community school.

in that regard. So like I said, man, I know you you're writing a book, you got the cooking thing going, you're speaking and turning around schools and then you chop it up and making great family dinners and stuff like that. But one of the things we love to do at Driven of Black is to help propel you and what you're doing and stuff like that. And I think S Squared has something he wants to show you to kind of help propel the brand a little bit, if you will. So let S Squared kind of

Dr. Jason McGhee
Amen.

Dr. Jason McGhee
it

Dr. Jason McGhee
Okay.

Dominic Lawson
Come on and do a thing. There it is. There it is. The bow tie though, right on brand though, like you was saying, man. There it is. There it is. There it is. It is a nice magazine cover for you and just wanted just a nice token of our appreciation to say thank you so much for coming on, dripping in black and sharing your knowledge and your story, things of that nature. He'll be shipping that out to you in the coming weeks.

Dr. Jason McGhee
listen, Yeah. I love it. love it. love it. I love it. Let's go.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yeah.

Dominic Lawson
things of nature so you can have that as a memento of being an alumnus, being an alumnus of the dripping and black family, man. So again, thank you again, Dr. Jason McGee for coming on the show. Everybody again, please be sure go to drjmcgee.com. He shared with you that link there in the show notes and on the screen. There it is again. I really appreciate that Dr. McGee. Also again, again, if you want to get one of these hoodies or sweatshirts or merch from dripping and black, go to D-I-B-K Drip Shop.

Dr. Jason McGhee
that's cool. Okay, okay, okay.

Dominic Lawson
Again, thank you S square for letting me be the guest host, but more importantly, Jim and in fact black family. Thank you for allowing me to do this with you. Thank you for allowing me to serve you in this role. Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. Thank you for supporting and thank you for subscribing and until next time be kind be excellent on purpose. It's a choice. Keep it black. Peace. And that's it, man. That's what's up, man.

Dr. Jason McGhee
Yes. Peace.

Yeah, that's what's up.